9905100075
DETROIT FREE PRESS
990510
Monday, May 10, 1999
METRO FINAL
1D
Photo United Press International;Photo DUANE
BURLESON/Associated Press;Photo RICHARD LEE/Detroit Free Press;Photo
Associated Press;Photo JEFF KOWALSKY/Associated Press;Photo JULIAN H.
GONZALEZ/Detroit Free Press
In 1989, after the Lakers were swept, Joe Dumars posed in New York
with the MVP trophy from the NBA Finals.
Joe Dumars has played more games in a Pistons uniform than anyone else.
In his 14 seasons with the Pistons, Joe Dumars has been a fan favorite --
especially with children. Detroit drafted him out of mcNeese State, where he
was the all-time leading scorer, with the 18th pick in 1985.
Dumars and his fiancee, Debbie Nelson, take in the rides at the magic Kingdom
after he won the MVP award of the 1989 NBA finals.
Dumars greets Isiah Thomas when No. 11 was retired in 1996.
Defense is a cornerstone of Dumars' game, and playing against the best -- such
as Michael Jordan -- brings out the best in him.
MITCH ALBOM
Copyright (c) 1999, Detroit Free Press
WITH RETIREMENT LOOMING, DUMARS SPEAKS HIS PIECE
THERE ARE few things more enjoyable in Detroit sports than a private
conversation with Joe Dumars. I have been fortunate enough to have many of
them over the years. As Dumars, 35, is winding down his career with the
Pistons, I thought it would be fitting to share parts of our most recent
conversation, held a few days ago over breakfast, when we talked about life,
career, retirement, basketball and having your son as a ball boy.
Mitch: Was there one defining moment where you said, "That's it. It's time to
quit?"
Joe: There's not one. It's just an inner feeling that you have that you know.
I think I've given it all I can.
And, once you decided, was there any moment where you thought you were wrong?
I had about a two-week stretch of some great games this year. And everybody
was saying, "Come back, come back, come back." But every time I would think
about another training camp and another preseason and 82 more games and flying
out on a 10-day road trip -- that would always bring me back to reality.
What will you miss the least?
Training camp. Training camp and preseason games really get old.
You think that's why when Michael Jordan quit the first time -- and the second
-- he quit right before training camp?
Yeah. And when I heard Wayne Gretzky's press conference, and he said just
having to train for two hours every summer to go to a training camp didn't
appeal to him anymore -- I was looking at the television, and I said, "He's
speaking to me right now."
Do you relate more to Gretzky's retirement than say Jordan's or John Elway's
because Gretzky is leaving without a last championship?
In a way. Having the rewards come at the end as they did for Elway are great,
but I enjoyed having the majority of my career defined by being a champion. It
brings so much more respect from referees, other coaches, the media, the fans,
your teammates and your opponents. I won a championship in the fourth year --
this is my 14th year -- so for the past 10 years, because of those two
championships, you always walk in with a little bit more respect than some of
the other athletes who haven't.
When you look at the younger guys coming in, is there any connection between
you and them at all?
Well, as a teammate you're always gonna have a certain bond. But some of the
things that peak my curiosity really don't peak a 19- or 20-year-old's
curiosity.
Do the young guys use expressions you don't even understand?
Yeah, occasionally I have to ask what does that mean? But more than that, when
I hear them say, "I remember back in the day . . ." And I say, "Back in the
day?" They're talking about 1989 or '90! I was already in this league winning
championships. I was a 25-year-old man then! Or you hear a kid come in and
say, "I remember when you guys won that first championship and me and my
friends, we ran outside and we started playing ball after you guys won, and we
were like 'I'm gonna be Isiah, I'm gonna be Joe.' " And I'll ask them, "How
old were you then?" "Oh, I think I was maybe 10 or 12." I'm like, "Oh, OK --
almost my son's age."
What has it been like to be the last surviving member of the whole Bad Boys
thing?
It was more noticeable to me when it first happened, when I first became the
last one here.
And how did you deal with it?
It was kind of an awkward, funny, challenging feeling. Like, OK, I am the only
one left, I am the one that knows what we went through, how we got there. I
want to pass that along, but I want to be careful not to inundate these guys
with, "I remember when . . ." You know what I mean?
Did you feel lonely?
Early on I did. When I first looked around -- the first year or so -- I kind
of said, "God ...you know . . ."
Who am I gonna talk to?
Yeah, who am I gonna talk to? Who understands what it's been like?
Do you think being the youngest prepares you for any of that?
That's a good point. It was totally parallel to me growing up. I grew up in a
house full of people, I was the youngest, I soaked up everything that
everybody did and said. Then one day, I was the last one home. Kind of an only
child. Just me and my mother and father. But I could always recall what my
older brothers had done and said and the way they acted. And it was the same
thing with this team.
Let me get some thumbnail impressions of some people you've played with. Let's
start with Dennis Rodman.
A true rags to riches story.
Rags to riches to rags?
Could be. That's yet to be seen. But he was definitely the shy, introverted,
unassuming, unpretentious kid that has turned into what you see now. He is
totally on the opposite end of the spectrum of the Dennis Rodman I met and
knew here in Detroit.
Have you talked to him recently?
No. But when we've played the Bulls the last couple of years and I would see
him, he would always smile and it would be almost like a knowing look like,
like ...you know what I'm doing ...yeah ...but you don't say anything.
You never went up to him in all the time and said, "Come on, what are you
doing?"
I knew he was beyond that conversation. Maybe you could have gotten to him
when he was in San Antonio, but by the time he got to the Bulls, he was beyond
that conversation.
Do you think it was Chuck Daly's leaving that set him off?
Yeah, I think Dennis was a guy who definitely needed some stability, and you
really didn't know it until that happened.
If they told you he was available and asked you whether you'd welcome him back
on the team?
Only because I played with him before, and I think I have a little bit more
insight about him, would I have said yes. Maybe that's idealistic.
When they say Jordan was the reason he could exist on the Bulls, do you buy
that?
I do think this: Wherever he's gone where he's respected the other people
around him, where they have accomplished what he has, he worked out and they
won. He went to two other teams that didn't have that, and he went off the
charts. He went to San Antonio; those guys hadn't accomplished anything. And
the guys at the Lakers hadn't accomplished anything. And you could see the
difference in his behavior. He says to himself: "I don't really have to
respect this situation, and I'm not going to."
How about Bill Laimbeer?
Bill Laimbeer was a lot of different things. He was tough as nails,
determined, all those adjectives that you use -- down-and-dirty, hard-nosed
player -- but he was also very bright, very intelligent. You get into a
conversation with him, and you enjoy it, even though a lot of times he and I
took the opposite ends of the conversation. Republican vs. Democrat a lot.
What would you talk about it?
Social ills, government spending -- he and I had some great, deep,
conversations. Usually on the plane. I remember we had huge conversations when
Clinton was first running for office in '92. Bill was not a Clinton fan -- as
you might figure.
How about Isiah Thomas? A lot has been written about your relationship with
him? What do people misunderstand?
What gets lost a lot of times is the admiration I had for him before I got
here. I'm telling you -- in college, I had one poster on the wall. It was
Isiah. I had no idea that I would ever play with this guy. I don't know how I
can explain to people how huge that was for me to come here and say, "Wow, I'm
playing in the backcourt with this guy here." I'd try to soak up everything I
could from him. I would watch the way he'd practice, the way he warmed up -- I
would watch every single thing. He was definitely the best basketball player
I've ever played with in my life. Definitely.
What about the time Isiah said Detroit wouldn't have lost the championship if
you hadn't gotten friendly with Jordan?
(Smiles.) We got beyond that.
What did you think of that when it happened?
Obviously, I disagreed with it.
You don't have any contact with him now, though?
Occasionally we run into each other.
Why isn't he with the Pistons in some capacity?
I don't even think he can give a definitive answer on that. I know I
definitely can't.
What about Chuck Daly? Do you appreciate his coaching skills more as you get
older?
Yeah. That's exactly what I was gonna say. He's almost like a parent that way.
Your parents will tell you something, you hear it, you say, yeah, OK, I'm
gonna do it, but as you get older and you become a grown-up and a parent
yourself, you realize, wow, now I see why he was saying what he said.
Give me an example of something he said while he was here that you didn't
value until he was gone.
"Seize the moment, guys. You never know when it's gonna come back around."
Now, when you're 25, 26 years old, that goes in one ear, slows down a little
bit, and quickly gets out the other side because you think "I'm invincible" or
"I'm young, I'm strong -- we're gonna always be here." No, you won't. No, you
won't. Seize the moment. 'Cause you never know when it's gonna be gone.
Would you like to go back and play for him now knowing what you know?
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
How would you be different with him?
I'd probably bend his ear a little bit more. Learn more. Because he definitely
has some knowledge there. He was an older coach, and I find, through
basketball and away from basketball, you deal with older people -- there's so
much wisdom and knowledge there.
You've always gravitated toward older people.
Yeah.
Is that one of the reasons you've grown closer with Bill Davidson over the
years?
Yeah. I respect anybody who has kind of done and seen it all. I respect the
adage of been there, done that. I gravitate to that.
Can you remember when you played him the first time in tennis, saying to
yourself: "He is my boss, let's not put any shots right past him?"
Well, I was definitely conscious of who was on the other side of the net. Hey,
that's Mr. D over there. Yeah.
No overhead slams?
No. I promise you there won't be any overhead slams on Mr. D!
Do you think, in retrospect, you'll be fortunate that you played all those
games against Michael Jordan? Is your career defined a little bit by him?
Yeah. Oh, there's no question about it. And I consider him the greatest
basketball player to ever live. He and I are the same age. We came through it
-- at the same time. And to be able to compete against him at that particular
level -- with the things that were on the line -- and to be successful doing
it -- it has to mean something to you. And it wasn't like I was a forward and
he was a guard -- we were both two-guards, and we had to go head-to-head,
night after night after night after night. And that gives you kind of a
different perspective of your career -- and his.
Do you envision yourself as the general manager of this team? There are people
out there already openly referring to you as that, the GM next year.
That has never, ever, ever been discussed. Never. I can sit here and look at
you right now and say never. We've talked about staying within the
organization in some role, and we said it's a yet-to-be-determined role. But
in terms of a GM -- no, I have never, ever discussed that.
Do you wanna do it?
I can't necessarily say I would. I can't say I wanna wake up and go to work
every day from 9-to-5 and be the GM every day.
Coaching is definitely out?
(Laughs.) I've been on record for a while with that. I have no aspirations to
do that.
I just want to make sure you're not changing your mind.
No, no, no, no -- absolutely not!
Assistant coaching?
Uck -- no. No, no, no.
Don't wanna be on a bench unless you're wearing a uniform?
Right. Actually, you're right. I don't. More than anything, it's the thought
of not having to be on an 82-game schedule appeals to me. I don't wanna turn
around and be a coach or an assistant coach. You're still a part of that
grind.
Are you going to keep your dream that once you retire, you're going to attend
every major sporting event in the world?
Yep. When they ran the Kentucky Derby last week, I was thinking: "Next year
I'm gonna be there.' Absolutely. I'm gonna start. I absolutely will. I think
one of the toughest places it's gonna be for me to go, though, is to the
Australian Open -- tennis.
Why?
I heard that's a 22-hour flight. That might be my last trip right there. I
might save that for last.
Do you actually have a list of the events you want to see?
I know exactly what I wanna see.
Rattle off a few.
I gotta go to Wimbledon. Gotta go to Wimbledon. I gotta go to the Kentucky
Derby. I have to go to at least one World Series game. I'm going to the Super
Bowl because it's the Super Bowl. I've already gone to the Indianapolis 500.
And I have to make the World Cup. I think there's so much energy at the World
Cup. That appeals to me.
The Masters?
That's a toughie right there. It's kind of tough for me to get into that
Augusta National thing. I guess the one golf event I would make is the U.S.
Open.
Have you been to the Olympics?
No. But that's on the list.
A lot has been made of the fact that you play with "class." Writers and
broadcasters always talk about your "class." Do you think you get rewarded for
being a regular guy in a field full of rich egomaniacs?
I've always known that. I'm just a regular guy here in an irregular business
-- a high-profile, very hyped, very irregular type of business. And I just
happen to be a non-hype, regular guy. I'm gonna show up to work for 14
straight years and play a thousand games and get it done and try to handle
myself the way good, decent people do. And for that, I've been given all this
honor of being this classy and professional person.
But to you, it's no big deal?
I've done nothing special. I am no different from my brothers, my sister, my
mother, my father -- at their job. I did the same, exact thing that they did.
And it's no different from most of these people in Detroit at Ford or GM or
Chrysler who've been getting up and going to work for 20 years and doing their
job. Don't make trouble. Say things like, "Hey, how you doing? Thank you.
Please. No, thank you." Regular things. And in my profession, man, you're
considered to have this incredible class because you do that. Why? It's just
what normal people do. Really, I've always thought that.
Why do you think you weren't tempted to become abnormal?
The only thing I can figure is my upbringing. I was just so grounded growing
up. And humility ...that was pounded in my house. I mean, my father and mother
were like, "You better be humble at all costs, and if I see you getting
boastful at all, it's gonna be a major problem here."
Did you ever get disciplined for what was perceived as boastful?
I think my mom was the only one. She would pull me aside and say stuff like,
"You know, it's only because God is blessing you that this good stuff is
happening to you."
Do you still talk to your mom in that way?
Oh, yeah. And she still talks to me in that way.
Does she come here to visit?
Oh, yeah, she's come up occasionally. But my mom is very -- what's the word --
inconspicuous? -- when she comes here.
I've never met her.
You won't see her. She comes in -- very quiet. She'll stay for four or five
days. That's about as long as she can take. Then she quietly gets on out of
here. "Oh, gotta go back home. Gotta go back home." Somebody asked her one
time, "Why don't you move up to Detroit where your son is?" (Laughs.)
That's like asking a fish to leave the water?
That's blasphemy. That's blasphemy right here. "Me leave Louisiana -- what?
Leave Louisiana? He can move here. He can have his old room back."
How about your dad, who died during your second championship run? Do you miss
him at times like this?
Yeah. Yeah. Because I'd like for him to see me finish this. 'Cause I told you
once what his parting words were to me coming up here: "Son, that's a good job
you got there. Now you do well, and be respectful of those people up there
when you get there, OK?" He didn't say: "Have a great career." He didn't say:
"I hope you get your jump shot going." He said: "That's a good job you got
there."
Don't blow it.
Don't blow it.
Is your appreciation of fatherhood part of the reason you had Jordan be the
ball boy this year?
First and foremost, he absolutely loves basketball and the NBA and all. And
second of all, I just, as a father, wanted him around. I wanted him there.
There have been so many times this season that the game is going on and I'm
sitting there looking at him sitting on the floor with all the rest of the
ball boys and I just kind of find myself gazing at him, watching him -- eyes
wide open and he is just mesmerized. And he's gotten to know all the players
from the other teams. They come in. He shags for them. Rebounds for them. And
he's gotten to know Iverson and Kobe Bryant and Shaq -- and they all know him.
Does he say I'm Joe Dumars' son?
No, never. Ever. Ever. 'Cause I asked him one time -- I said, "Jordan, how
have you gotten to know all these guys?" He said, "Well, Dad, I rebound for
them." And he said they all ask, "What's your name, little man?" And he says,
"Jordan." "Jordan what?" "Dumars." "Joe's your dad?" "Yeah." He will not offer
it himself. Remember I told you what was preached in my house about humility?
Well, it's preached in my house, too.
Are you aware he's carrying a burden you didn't have to?
Yeah. That's why the one small thing I can do is name him Jordan instead of
Joe Jr. And even his basketball. He'll ask me sometimes, "Dad, what should I
work on?" I'll say, "Having fun. That's what I want you to work on."
Are you finding as you get to your final games that you're doing a mental
countdown?
No. What I have done, though, is going into certain buildings and looked
around and said I won't ever play in here again. I did that at Madison Square
Garden. I did that in the city of Boston -- not so much the building -- but
when we were driving to the hotel, I was looking around and saying wow, I had
some great, great times in this city.
Have guys been saying good-bye to you?
A few coaches and some referees and some of the guys who knew. One night, a
couple of the older referees, Joey Crawford and Tommy Newnaz, they both came
up before the game and Joey said, "You know, I've been refereeing for 22
years, Joe. People ask me all kinds of questions: What's it like to referee
Jordan? What's it like to referee Magic? And I've always told people, Joe
Dumars is the best person that I've ever refereed in the game in 22 years. I
mean that." So we had that nice little exchange, and that's something you can
take with you for life.
What's been your biggest moment of contentment?
This season right here. If you had asked me five years ago: "Joe, the end of
your career is coming up at some point, what would be your perfect scenario?"
I would have said to you then as I do now, "Well, Mitch, the perfect scenario
for me is about 50 games, I play pretty well, and we get into the playoffs."
Really? Why not perfect scenario -- 82 games and we win the championship?
Well, if I thought that we were on the verge of just winning it all, that
would be it. But five years ago, we were not even a playoff team. I've always
been a realist.
What do you picture in your mind for your last game?
Well, you can't picture a last game as a loss. As an athlete, you cannot do
that. There's no way that your perfect game ends with a loss. So, just from an
athletic standpoint, from a competitive standpoint, how do you say it's a
perfect game if you lose? It just doesn't happen. But if we were to get deep
in the playoffs and be right there knocking at the door, and let's say we came
up short, I could leave pretty content and happy with that scenario.
Think you'll do anything that game differently? Hang around the locker room a
little longer?
I won't hang around the locker room. I'll probably say something to my
teammates before all the media got in. But, no, there's no hanging around.
Grab your clothes and go?
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because if you hang around, maybe it means you really
don't wanna go or you have some reservations. I have absolutely no
reservations. None at all.
How do you think you'll be remembered? And how do you want to be remembered?
And are they the same?
I don't know if they'll be the same. I hope so. I just wanna be remembered for
accomplishing some great basketball things but just being a good person.
Does your son want you to keep playing?
I asked him. I said, "Do you think I should retire, Jordan?" He said, "Well, I
thought about this. You could help 'em one more year, Dad. You really could."
And I said, "But will you be upset if I retire?" And he said, "No, no, no." I
said, "Why?" And he said, "Because we
can play in the driveway one-on-one all the time." So I was like, OK, then.
Well, I'm gonna retire. We're gonna do that.
MITCH ALBOM can be reached at 1-313-223-4581 or albom@freepress.com. Listen
to "Albom in the Afternoon" 3-6 p.m. weekdays and "Monday Sports Albom" 6:30-8
p.m. Mondays on WJR-AM (760).
THIS ELECTRONIC VERSION MAY DIFFER SLIGHTLY FROM THE PRINTED ARTICLE.
COLUMN JOE DUMARS;INTERVIEW;RETIREMENT